View Full Version : Friday's Food For Fort (Thought) Part I
Hey all,
Here is a bit of philosophy for a Friday morning ...
If a tree falls in the woods, and nothing is around to hear it (or see it or is anywhere near it,) does it make a sound?
Opinions please ...
PS, what would Quantum Theory say? (because I know someone will bring this up)
Hmmm.....
WEEEELLLLL
(can we smell it?)
If theres no proof of the existence of the tree since we havent seen it then the sound waves well do they even exist?
BUUTTTTT fun as all that quantam theory is,people do not need to observe something for it to exist. For example i know that down my street is a old man pub, ive never seen it or heard it but i know its there.It doesnt not exist...
Very early for this btw george...
Funny story actually...
You will probably find that if no-one is around to see it, then the tree has neither fallen nor not fallen. Therefore until it is observed its in a state of unknown....
Therefore, to answer you question, has the tree made a noise? Thats also an uncertainty until you know if the tree has fallen... if it has fallen, then according to our known laws of physics yeah it made a sound. if it hasn't... go figure...
surely you have to assume it has fallen?If we have assumed the existence of a tree to fall then then assuming it has fallen is not far fetched....
Well the tree is in a state of unknown (possibly not even in existence) until observed. It will only at the moment of observation decide whether it is upright or fallen, if it has fallen due to the observation then that means someone or something is in the vicinity which voids the argument?
However, dose Quantum Theory apply to macroscopic objects? Another debate will no doubt rage from here ... :D
"Does it exist" is irrelevant, seeing as the question contains "If a tree falls in the woods". The question itself proves the existence of the tree and the act of falling.
With this question, we assume that no-one means nobody, ie no human. Should we disclude all living entities? It would be typically arrogant of humans to do so.
If a tree falls in the woods and there IS someone around to hear it, it does make a noise. Therefore, it is very safe to assume that if no-one was around, it would still make the same noise.
If a tree falls in the woods, and no living entity is around to hear it, then there is no tree and no woods (and therefore no question), as we must include all flora and fauna in our "no-one"
Physics tell us that sound travels as a wave of vibrations passed from one molecule to another. As trees need carbon dioxide to live, we must assume that if there was a tree, and indeed a wood, there must be air (or at least a surrounding gas containing Carbon Dioxide and expelled Oxygen). Therefore, the sound would still travel wether there were ears to hear it or not.
Certainly, the question "If a tree falls in space, does it make a sound?" would be a definite NO, based on current human understanding of the make up of space.
if we were to disclude all ears but human, and set up a recording device in the woods before walking away (well outside the distance any sound could travel) when we returned after the falling of a tree, we would have a recording of the sound it made as it fell.
Logically speaking, if a tree falls in the woods and no-one is around to hear it, it does still make a sound.
In my opinion of course. With philosophy, there is no right or wrong answer, just problems.
Don't even get me started on the half-full/half-empty glass! :D
If a tree falls in the woods, and nothing is around to hear it ...
PS, what would Quantum Theory say? (because I know someone will bring this up)
Nothing is around to hear it, not "no-one". No one would suggest a human, in my opinion, but yeah a raccoon would still record the sound if heard but "nothing" can exclude all woodland critters (oh dear, South Park episode flashback).
"Does it exist" is irrelevant, seeing as the question contains "If a tree falls in the woods". The question itself proves the existence of the tree and the act of falling.
I knew that people would bring QT into this :D so I had to include that in my original post but yes, we must assume that it does exist as the question states it does BUT for it to exist QT tells us that there must be an observer :confused: so if there was an observer then a sound would be heard. Vicious circle anyone?
Let's ignore QT for now :D
My opinion is that it does not make a sound, as there is no audio receptor to receive that sound. Even if a sound did travel, it is never received or measured ...
Half full / half empty / optimist / pessimist,
Maybe next weeks will be the chicken and the egg if we really want to debate hard :D we shall have to wait and see ...
Back on topic ...
"half-full / half-empty glass!"
Neither. It's always full. Half of it with a liquid you can see and the other half with air which you can't see.
:D
Back on topic...
Confuscius
11-04-08, 13:17
Ok - I get it. Just because I cannot still find a single description in the Bennetts merchant feed then it doesn't mean that there aren't any! QED!:p
Lol Confi! (if a sale is made and no-one is around to prove it, did the commission get reversed?)
George, sound does not need a receptor for it to exist, it needs a receptor for it to be heard. Are you implying that the Big Bang was silent?
Chicken and Egg = Egg.
Don't argue.
Its egg.
Certainly, the question "If a tree falls in space, does it make a sound?" would be a definite NO, based on current human understanding of the make up of space.
I thought you implied that no sound can be heard in space :confused:
Again, if no molecules are present in space then no waves will vibrate against those molecules. Molecules don't exist between the vast areas between stars etc so no sound waves can travel there.
However, space is not an area that I have researched much into so I cannot really comment heavily on this.
the question is meant to make you think.... how can you prove its made a sound... the only way would be to have something hear it... so then go one step back. how do we know the tree has even fallen until its been observed.... so the way i see it, until 'something' observes it has fallen, then you cant make the assumption it has made a sound... maybe the question is flawed.
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Confuscius
11-04-08, 15:55
My observation is that, after careful consideration and extensive research of the topic, I cannot see the wood for the trees.
I am trying to get to the root of the problem. I have branched into various scientific genres for further inspiration, turned over every leaf that I can find and gone barking mad!
So, I reckon that the answer is Yes, No, yes and no, no and yes or possibly.
Ok the facts are that if we think the tree exists then so do the elements that allow it to exist (ie the air and molecules that allow for sound), and since your question states certain facts, we can assume that there is a possibility that the tree 'could fall', and since sound travels at a relatively slow speed, if we sit far enough away, we can wait quietly for a while until the event (the sound wave) catches us up. So in my opinion the experiment is not over its still happening, just sit far enough away and wait for the results...
By calculating the estimated time when the tree fell (if it did), we can then calculate how far away we need to sit, to 'catch' the audible event...
also we would then know (by calculation) whether a tree had fallen up to a certain point in time (which i think would be [current time - (distance / soundspeed)]
we know people are able to sit and wait this long, because sometimes we wait this long for a sale :)
Confuscius
12-04-08, 10:54
I am now much clearer on this issue thanks to Ian and his analogy to waiting!
So, although I did not hear the mouse click on the 'Buy Now' button then because I see the pending sale appear in my account then I can say with certainty that it must have happened even though I was not there to personally witness the event.
Does anyone know how to stop the other tree that also fell over that George withheld information about that resulted in the sale being declined? Would buying a pair of ear muffs help? :confused:
Paul
Bluesplayer
28-04-08, 01:43
Yes it makes a sound. You have been watching too many sci fi programs and it has rattled your brain. Stick to facts!
Watched a good sci fi film tonight - The Last Winter. Really well made and full of atmosphere which is something that is sadly lacking in a lot of modern films.